Funny women
Dec. 10th, 2006 02:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mmcirvinIn his endless quest after new ways to be a jerk, Christopher Hitchens bravely ventures into territory heretofore covered only by a million bad stand-up comics and explains, using Science he mostly pulled out of his butt, that women aren't funny because being funny is not attractive to men, this having something to do with male awe at baby-making; he actually quotes Kipling in the process. (He interestingly dismisses extant good female comedians as "hefty or dykey or Jewish", excluding the last category from the truly feminine sphere through the power of circular argument.)
Choire Sicha correctly identifies the old game: say something insulting about women (or some other group traditionally excluded from power) that includes a crack about how humorless they are, wait for some member of that group to act offended, and then say "See?" Garance Franck-Ruta observes that if humor is supposed to be men's attractant for the opposite sex, Hitchens just failed.
My personal experience on alt.religion.kibology in the 1990s and early 2000s would seem to be a counterexample to Hitchens' thesis. There were various women who posted to the group, and the number of men lusting after them at any given time usually seemed to be proportional to the extent to which they used the aggressive style of humor that Hitchens thinks is sexually unattractive in women. "Lisa Pea" Higgins could get the whole group hot and bothered just by posting a complex riff, rich in nuance and literary allusions, on the subject of how much she hated everybody. I personally was initially attracted to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
samantha2074 because of her funny posts on a.r.k, in which she wasn't exactly a shrinking violet--though Sam later said she was a bit uneasy at the fact that the men seemed to start drooling whenever she put on an over-the-top hostile persona.
It seems to me that Hitchens might have a point if only he backed off a bit from the lazy ev-psychish generalizations to all humanity. There probably are a lot of men out there who want their women submissive and their sense of humor limited to laughing at the dudes' jokes. There may well be a lot of women out there who have responded to this attitude by not being expressively funny. These are, however, social circles that I've tended personally to avoid.
Choire Sicha correctly identifies the old game: say something insulting about women (or some other group traditionally excluded from power) that includes a crack about how humorless they are, wait for some member of that group to act offended, and then say "See?" Garance Franck-Ruta observes that if humor is supposed to be men's attractant for the opposite sex, Hitchens just failed.
My personal experience on alt.religion.kibology in the 1990s and early 2000s would seem to be a counterexample to Hitchens' thesis. There were various women who posted to the group, and the number of men lusting after them at any given time usually seemed to be proportional to the extent to which they used the aggressive style of humor that Hitchens thinks is sexually unattractive in women. "Lisa Pea" Higgins could get the whole group hot and bothered just by posting a complex riff, rich in nuance and literary allusions, on the subject of how much she hated everybody. I personally was initially attracted to
samantha2074 because of her funny posts on a.r.k, in which she wasn't exactly a shrinking violet--though Sam later said she was a bit uneasy at the fact that the men seemed to start drooling whenever she put on an over-the-top hostile persona.It seems to me that Hitchens might have a point if only he backed off a bit from the lazy ev-psychish generalizations to all humanity. There probably are a lot of men out there who want their women submissive and their sense of humor limited to laughing at the dudes' jokes. There may well be a lot of women out there who have responded to this attitude by not being expressively funny. These are, however, social circles that I've tended personally to avoid.
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no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 03:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 03:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 03:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-22 01:32 pm (UTC)How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? One and that's not funny.
Date: 2006-12-10 04:28 pm (UTC)The only relationships that I have been in that have come remotely closely to working have been with someone who had a good sense of humor and can make me laugh. One of the reasons I think Mez and I work so well is that we can crack each other up into the wee hours on a consistent basis. In fact, I think this is the prime factor why we work so well. That and she also threatens to hit me a lot.
There probably are a lot of men out there who want their women submissive and their sense of humor limited to laughing at the dudes' jokes. There may well be a lot of women out there who have responded to this attitude by not being expressively funny. These are, however, social circles that I've tended personally to avoid.
I don't understand the man who doesn't look for a sense of humor in a potential mate, and I guess I almost feel sorry for anyone who goes through life without desiring that from someone that they want to spend the rest of their life with.
Re: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? One and that's not funny.
Date: 2006-12-10 05:37 pm (UTC)Re: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? One and that's not funny.
Date: 2006-12-10 06:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 05:21 pm (UTC)...
In an environment hopefully full of people who really enjoy -- even unto 'better than sex!' levels -- making stuff up, and the more hugely surreal, baroquely creative, and deeply allusive it is the better, the volume of drool one receives is, I think, highly correlated with how powerfully and reliably you can awaken the droolees' Muses. Thus enabling them to kick-in and come up with there own creative stuff -- 'better than than sex!' -- and if you're lucky set up the virtuous circle of everyone all jamming and riffing off each other baybee!
Muses are fickle creatures who like to fall asleep a lot and leave one high and dry with absolutely nothing, nothing at all, or at least mine does. Listen:
'Zzzzz. Zzzzzzzzzz. Zzz. zzzzzzzzzz.'
...See?
So she who can pitch her creative stuff with just right crazed spin to awaken my Muse and get her whispering into my ear, gets the drool. Hereafter referred to as 'creative juices'. The sort of crunchiness to the texture that could come from over the top wacky hostility, is something that might sometimes do the trick, certainly.
Oddly enough, it was actually Andrea Chen who would most consistently awaken the Muse for me. More than merely consistently. Reliably. Invariably. Always, to the point of being slightly scary in retrospect. I hereby belatedly apologise for all the 'creative juices' I may have left dripping all over her posts.
...
Since Hitchens is supposedly a literary dude, one would have thought that that sort environment would be something he would be familiar with. Therefore I have to diagnose this attack of 'Women are all not funny anymore!' as arising from a serious and sudden loss of muse within Hitchens himself for likely completely unrelated reasons. Or maybe he's just met some *guy* who really gets the 'creative juices' flowing for him, and he's over-reacting by cutting up at all the girls. Or when he says 'dykey' he actually means, 'no longer finds me attractive, at all'.
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Date: 2006-12-10 05:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 06:03 pm (UTC)I seem to have this vague notion that _an_ Andrea Chen, whether male, female, existing or otherwise, did actually moderate a falconry newsgroup at some point tho'.
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Date: 2006-12-10 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-11 01:11 am (UTC)Hitchens is such a troll
Date: 2006-12-10 05:31 pm (UTC)(and just incredibly wet-yer-pants funny, and also very sexy, all of them).
Lily Tomlin, Ellen Degeneres and Rosie O'Donnel are lesbians, Margaret Cho
is a little hefty. Gee. Wow, OK Hitch, I guess you're right - if a woman is funny, she must be "hef..."
Hold the phone!
Amy Poehler? <---- Tied with Sacha Cohen for funniest person on the
planet. There must be SOMETHING "weird" about her, eh?
Amy Sedaris? <---- Eastern Orthodox -- well, that's ALMOST JEWISH!
Debra Wilson? <---- BLACK! What about them, huh Hitch?
Samantha Bee? <---- Canadian. Nuff Said.
Catherine O'hara <-- Canadian + Roman Catholic ==> Secret Lesbian!!!
The article actually has some more interesting ideas in it than what the headline indicates, but I guess he frames it as "Women Aren't Funny" just to be provocative and get us to do what we're
doing now.
Just imagine what triumphalist crap he'd be ramming down our throats now if his beloved Iraq war had somehow been less of a catastrophe...
Re: Hitchens is such a troll
Date: 2006-12-10 07:57 pm (UTC)Wait, Lily Tomlin is gay? That is neat!
I seem to remember concluding at some point that 'funny' was supposed to be a conduit for 'smart' when you weren't attractive enough to have that carry your whole persona.
I am glad I don't have to hang around people who subscribe to this viewpoint.
I am not glad, however, that my level of weird wryness doesn't usually make it across the cold, cruel pipes of th' web. Oh well.
Re: Hitchens is such a troll
Date: 2006-12-10 09:35 pm (UTC)Re: Hitchens is such a troll
Date: 2006-12-10 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 08:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-10 08:10 pm (UTC)So! The even-rarer Unternet Hot Chyxxor. Who actually exists! And is funny! I stand in awe.
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Date: 2006-12-11 02:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-11 02:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-11 06:01 am (UTC)Being a guy who can't be a body-double for Brad Pitt, I was shocked at the flirty I got from females. Then I decided to shut up and roll with it.
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Date: 2006-12-10 11:22 pm (UTC)As for the hostility/aggressiveness turn-on aspect, I think that's just a tendency that runs through the male geek population. Which can manifest itself as anything ranging from liking assertive women, because that frees them from the pressure of deciding things themselves... all the way to wanting to be tied up and spanked by dominatrixes.
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Date: 2006-12-11 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-11 06:26 am (UTC)Also, I think there's got to be some sort of law against using the word "nookie" in Matt's journal.
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Date: 2006-12-11 06:04 am (UTC)----
That, and many guys are sick of 'OH NOES, I have to choose between cheeserburger and fish sandwhich. Giggle giggle giggle'.
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Date: 2006-12-12 11:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-12 12:16 pm (UTC)You're reading Chris Hitchens
Date: 2006-12-10 07:54 pm (UTC)Re: You're reading Chris Hitchens
Date: 2006-12-10 09:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-11 05:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-12-16 02:58 pm (UTC)