Out riding fences
Jul. 27th, 2005 01:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mmcirvinWe all know that there are lots of lonely, geeky guys on the Internet who are looking for love and have little idea how to go about it, many of whom remind me startlingly of myself circa ten years ago. In recent weeks particuarly there's been a lot of chatter about and by them. I've often been bothered by the fact that I can't give them much really useful advice about how to deal with their situation, even though I was in it for a long time.
However, I do think they get lots of identifiably bad advice, which I will now critique using the recognized psychological technique of dissecting the lyrics of the Eagles song "Desperado".
1. "Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?"
Oh, that'll help. The impression seems to be that these young men have absolutely no idea that being alone is worse than not being alone, and just need a good kick in the pants to make them not be chicken any more, or perhaps just a reminder of how they're losing all their highs and lows, and ain't it funny how the feeling goes away? (I think they now have serotonin reuptake inhibitors for that.)
The important thing to realize here is that these young men (if they're anything like me) are usually deeply ashamed of themselves; they're pretty sure that there's something wrong with them that has kept them from correct romantic functioning, and are terrified that this might be incurable, in part because of...
2. "You better let somebody love you, before it's too late."
Aagh, not the deadline!
Granted, we're all on deadline; life is short (and for women who wish to breed, childbearing age is shorter, though I think this concern is pretty far from the minds of most lonely hetero guys).
But one thing that constantly terrified me was that there was a clock ticking that would render me completely unlovable within the decade, and that time had perhaps already run out. People were paying attention; people would quiz me; and the longer I went without kissing a girl, the older I got without sexual experience, the more weird and creepy in the minds of the world I would become, until my oddness would radiate from me as an aura and scare women away forever.
As far as I know, though, the only people who actually care much about these statistics are other men and particularly male comedy writers. I suppose there are women who prefer experienced partners, but that wasn't likely to be uppermost in the mind of someone I'd be compatible with anyway. And it wasn't. In fact, to the extent that there is an effect here, I suspect it becomes less of a concern as you get older rather than more, since your prospective partners are also older, more emotionally mature, and less likely to be hung up on something as dumb as this. Stressing "before it's too late" is not helping.†
3. "It seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you only want the ones that you can't get."
Now here we have something with a considerable amount of truth in it (if expressed in unfortunate language). In my experience, lonely nerdboys do spend an unreasonable amount of time pining after the ones that they can't get, and will sometimes reject real opportunities that would have been good for them.
This is often phrased in rueful terms by women: "they say they're interested in what's inside, but they still want the skinny blondes with big breasts." That is part of the problem. However, I'm not sure this is precisely the way to state the crux of the lonely nerdboy's problem either. (After all, this is also the trouble with men who are not lonely nerdboys!)
I think that many young men of fertile imagination and limited grasp of social cues make it worse for themselves in part because they have an old romantic ideal of courtship that is still visible in TV shows and movies: the young man first identifies an inamorata who gives him powerful fluttery feelings, then he pursues her, and unreasonable doggedness in this pursuit is considered admirable. There's a tendency to try to follow this script, then get hung up at the pursuit stage, because actually trying to do this is pretty scary, far scarier than just casually dating people you find sort of interesting (especially if the inamorata is already a friend of yours, which is often how it goes).
When the guy hears that his problem is that he's too chicken about approaching women, he won't think of keeping options open and broadening his statistics; he'll think in terms of this kind of amorous chase game. Then the pursuit acquires an additional element in his mind, that it's the challenge that will transform him into a different kind of person who laughs at this kind of fear. Worst of all, when he actually does make a move, he's both an absurd nervous wreck, and so fixated on the poor girl of his dreams that it'll devastate him when, as is likely, she gets creeped out and wants him to back off. Backing off, in his mind, isn't moving on; it isn't just giving up on this one person; it's giving up at Love, possibly forever. The project of personal transformation has failed.
He'll probably be too preoccupied through all this to notice genuine interest from somebody else, or he'll think there's no chemistry there because he doesn't feel the thrilling amalgam of obsession and shuddering terror that he associates with True Love.
So is the answer that he shouldn't reject anybody—that he should go for the first opportunity that comes along? Of course not. There is nothing evil about rejecting potential romantic partners; it happens. But it's going to be hard for him to be picky in a good way when he's busy with chase games, even if they're mostly in his head.
At least, that was how it was for me, for far too long. Fortunately, when you get into this state, one thing that does seem to help (though it is contrary to almost every piece of advice you'll hear) is to just take a couple of years off chasing women while you get your head together and remember how people actually act.
† Note: A variant of this concern is Ferris Bueller's Fallacy (thanks to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lots42 for making the Which Fictional Character Would You Punch? post that reminded me of this). You may recall that while the esteemed Mr. Bueller's concerns about his friend Cameron mostly revolved around Cameron's father, one of his many conversations with the fourth wall concerned Cameron's lack of dating experience, and how if it went on very much longer (bearing in mind that these people are supposed to be teenagers in high school) it would mess with Cameron's head in such a way that any woman who finally Put The Sex On To Him would be able to dominate him completely. The line caused me unreasonable terror in my youth. Admittedly it bears a vague resemblance to the process I described in part 3 above, but the time scale and causative factors are all wrong. As far as I know there is no evidence for the described effect in controlled studies conducted in a John Hughes-free environment.
However, I do think they get lots of identifiably bad advice, which I will now critique using the recognized psychological technique of dissecting the lyrics of the Eagles song "Desperado".
1. "Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?"
Oh, that'll help. The impression seems to be that these young men have absolutely no idea that being alone is worse than not being alone, and just need a good kick in the pants to make them not be chicken any more, or perhaps just a reminder of how they're losing all their highs and lows, and ain't it funny how the feeling goes away? (I think they now have serotonin reuptake inhibitors for that.)
The important thing to realize here is that these young men (if they're anything like me) are usually deeply ashamed of themselves; they're pretty sure that there's something wrong with them that has kept them from correct romantic functioning, and are terrified that this might be incurable, in part because of...
2. "You better let somebody love you, before it's too late."
Aagh, not the deadline!
Granted, we're all on deadline; life is short (and for women who wish to breed, childbearing age is shorter, though I think this concern is pretty far from the minds of most lonely hetero guys).
But one thing that constantly terrified me was that there was a clock ticking that would render me completely unlovable within the decade, and that time had perhaps already run out. People were paying attention; people would quiz me; and the longer I went without kissing a girl, the older I got without sexual experience, the more weird and creepy in the minds of the world I would become, until my oddness would radiate from me as an aura and scare women away forever.
As far as I know, though, the only people who actually care much about these statistics are other men and particularly male comedy writers. I suppose there are women who prefer experienced partners, but that wasn't likely to be uppermost in the mind of someone I'd be compatible with anyway. And it wasn't. In fact, to the extent that there is an effect here, I suspect it becomes less of a concern as you get older rather than more, since your prospective partners are also older, more emotionally mature, and less likely to be hung up on something as dumb as this. Stressing "before it's too late" is not helping.†
3. "It seems to me some fine things have been laid upon your table, but you only want the ones that you can't get."
Now here we have something with a considerable amount of truth in it (if expressed in unfortunate language). In my experience, lonely nerdboys do spend an unreasonable amount of time pining after the ones that they can't get, and will sometimes reject real opportunities that would have been good for them.
This is often phrased in rueful terms by women: "they say they're interested in what's inside, but they still want the skinny blondes with big breasts." That is part of the problem. However, I'm not sure this is precisely the way to state the crux of the lonely nerdboy's problem either. (After all, this is also the trouble with men who are not lonely nerdboys!)
I think that many young men of fertile imagination and limited grasp of social cues make it worse for themselves in part because they have an old romantic ideal of courtship that is still visible in TV shows and movies: the young man first identifies an inamorata who gives him powerful fluttery feelings, then he pursues her, and unreasonable doggedness in this pursuit is considered admirable. There's a tendency to try to follow this script, then get hung up at the pursuit stage, because actually trying to do this is pretty scary, far scarier than just casually dating people you find sort of interesting (especially if the inamorata is already a friend of yours, which is often how it goes).
When the guy hears that his problem is that he's too chicken about approaching women, he won't think of keeping options open and broadening his statistics; he'll think in terms of this kind of amorous chase game. Then the pursuit acquires an additional element in his mind, that it's the challenge that will transform him into a different kind of person who laughs at this kind of fear. Worst of all, when he actually does make a move, he's both an absurd nervous wreck, and so fixated on the poor girl of his dreams that it'll devastate him when, as is likely, she gets creeped out and wants him to back off. Backing off, in his mind, isn't moving on; it isn't just giving up on this one person; it's giving up at Love, possibly forever. The project of personal transformation has failed.
He'll probably be too preoccupied through all this to notice genuine interest from somebody else, or he'll think there's no chemistry there because he doesn't feel the thrilling amalgam of obsession and shuddering terror that he associates with True Love.
So is the answer that he shouldn't reject anybody—that he should go for the first opportunity that comes along? Of course not. There is nothing evil about rejecting potential romantic partners; it happens. But it's going to be hard for him to be picky in a good way when he's busy with chase games, even if they're mostly in his head.
At least, that was how it was for me, for far too long. Fortunately, when you get into this state, one thing that does seem to help (though it is contrary to almost every piece of advice you'll hear) is to just take a couple of years off chasing women while you get your head together and remember how people actually act.
† Note: A variant of this concern is Ferris Bueller's Fallacy (thanks to
lots42 for making the Which Fictional Character Would You Punch? post that reminded me of this). You may recall that while the esteemed Mr. Bueller's concerns about his friend Cameron mostly revolved around Cameron's father, one of his many conversations with the fourth wall concerned Cameron's lack of dating experience, and how if it went on very much longer (bearing in mind that these people are supposed to be teenagers in high school) it would mess with Cameron's head in such a way that any woman who finally Put The Sex On To Him would be able to dominate him completely. The line caused me unreasonable terror in my youth. Admittedly it bears a vague resemblance to the process I described in part 3 above, but the time scale and causative factors are all wrong. As far as I know there is no evidence for the described effect in controlled studies conducted in a John Hughes-free environment.![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2005-07-26 11:45 pm (UTC)Well, I know of at least one example of a dominating woman taking advantage of an inexperienced guy. But, the truth is that most of the time, when the guy who you think would never hook up finally does, the results are actually kind of average.
But it's hard to critical-think one way out of that fallacy. After all, if a man is completely unable to select his mate, it stands to reason that he has no say in who he ends up with. It's not until one is actually put to the test, and actually finds himself in the position of turning down an oncoming psycho hose beast, that one gains faith in one's own instincts.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 12:26 am (UTC)More to the point, the above is a fine, fine analysis.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 05:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 11:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 05:04 am (UTC)*applause*
Well done, son. ;-)
Actually, to be fair I no longer put myself in the "nerdy guy" category. I used to, but my time at college has upped my confidence a lot, to the extent that I'll freely flirt with anybody who comes near me, though I'm rarely serious about it. There are one or two girls I rather like the look of, and I'm not afraid to see if things could be moved on with one or either of them (one at a time, of course!) through chatting and dashing flirtatiousness. I'm also in a position where I'm trying to turn down somebody who I'd sort of lead on through indiscretion, because I thought that I could grow to love her, but I don't think I can - I'll have to do something about that.
But I try to present myself as a fairly serious chap who likes to play the amiable theatrical idiot - it's a role that's got me a lot of friends. :-D
I'm still worried about the sex thing, but not that I'm still a virgin - more that I find the idea of sex quite nerve-wracking, in a sort of "This is the moment where you lose your innocence!" type way. I'm feeling quite lonely at the moment, as it happens, and yearn for romantic female company - but I'm a chap who likes lots of holding, and kissing, here, there and everywhere. The act of sex itself isn't too important to me, really, but kissing is. Hmm.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 07:41 am (UTC)Seems to me that the desire and willingness to 'lose one's innocence' is actually the loss of it. Then, afterwards..."Oh. So, that was it. OK. I think I'll have a sandwich."
The first kiss, on the other hand...OOOH. That's a biggie.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 08:51 am (UTC)I'd probably be boring and fall asleep. Ahem.
The first kiss, on the other hand...OOOH. That's a biggie.
I rather liked mine. Nice gal, nice surroundings... :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 05:52 pm (UTC)I'd tend to get the worst crushes on women whenever I entered a new social environment. I think the idea I had was that with no reputation, I could start from scratch and become this newer, hipper person; and step one was to find somebody to ask out on a date. But then of course I'd start having sweats and palpitations and building up this massive fantasy about this arbitrarily chosen person instead of just doing it, and in my head the poor girl would become a symbol of my attempt to reinvent myself, and it would just be completely doomed. When I met Sam, for once I wasn't trying to reinvent myself at all.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 07:01 pm (UTC)That would have been strange, as I had been secretly reading your a.r.k. posts for several years. Talk about a bait and switch.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-28 06:31 am (UTC)That's how I initially felt about college, having been at a horrid all boys school for the previous five years. I spent a few weeks wandering about, rather depressed that all the nice girls already had boyfriends and such. Howwever, then I got a girlfriend outside the college (outside England, as it turned out), and so could begin to enjoy my college days by just having fun and not really trying to do anything serious at all, I wasn't looking out for anything or anyone. As a result I gained a lot of friends, many of them female, and all was well. Now the relationship I was in is over (we're still friends, though :-) ), but I'm not frightened of ever asking anybody out if I wanted to - my confidence has been severely upped. :-)
When I go to uni, I hope to just play the befuddled silly Englander in a new place, who doesn't appear to have any designs on anybody, and lots of girls will find me cute and gravitate towards my general innocent silliness. ;-) I'm also quite fond of being camp when I wish, which can get me along in conversations with girls (not saying that you have to pretend to be camp for girls to like you, obviously, but it ups my own confidence) - I will freely say if I find certain males attractive, and generally prefer female conversation topics (which tend to be more people and emotion based) than male ones (which are often more material, cars and games and such). At college I've been able to flounce about and make people laugh on occasion and get some close friends that way. It was a gamble - everybody could have just found me an extroadinarily irritating berk, and some probably do. ;-) I flirt a lot, but never try to do it in a serious fashion.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 05:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 06:01 am (UTC)The added complication for gay nerds is that most gay nerds do not themselves fit this stereotype, and therefore have an added layer of self-hatred and unworthiness to go with their lust for the Young Beautiful Ones. They think to themselves, not in so many words, but subliminally "how can a fat nerdy old fag like me ever attract a cute young twink?" I'm not saying that all older, slightly overweight gay nerds should just date each other, because sadly it isn't that simple, but it's funny how they often don't give one another the slightest consideration. "Oh, he's not my type."
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 06:30 am (UTC)Whereas lonely young straight women primarily become convinced that they're too ugly to be loved, because they're supposed to be the pursued ones and being pursued traditionally comes from physical attractiveness. It stands to reason that gay men would get a little of both complexes.
I'm not sure what happens with gay women because the ones I know often didn't come out until they got older, which confounds the issue.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 06:39 am (UTC)I'm not sure what happens with gay women because the ones I know often didn't come out until they got older
That's that same "time limit" issue you brought up. Our culture, for everyone, gay and straight, is centered about youth as a marker of desirability, and that affects everyone's experience, sadly.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 07:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 10:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 01:17 pm (UTC)It's a bit of a relief to see someone else say that. You don't often hear people criticize gay men for overvaluing appearance; usually they praise the men for being so helpful ("Queer Eye for the Straight Guy").
The gay male friends I've had (in real life, not Internet life) have all been extremely concerned with appearances -- theirs, mine, strangers on the street, you name it. The two friends I had who I knew when they were ostensibly straight became almost intolerable after they came out of the closet, because I'm not some lipstick-and-bustier wearing fag hag, I'm just a matronly Midwestern nerd. Their comments about my appearance were insulting at best, especially considering neither had any fashion sense at all. Two words: pink turtlenecks.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 02:08 pm (UTC)I've known several RL gay men who weren't judgmental like that, but many are, and many are harsher on themselves than on anyone, filled with self-doubt as to their own appearance, rivalling anorexic straight girls in their obsession with their own weight, muscles, and hair.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 06:52 am (UTC)This is going to sound bizarre, but one thing that I think was going on with me is that I was actually sort of emotionally precocious. I was having what I now realize were rudimentary crushes on little girls at school when I was 6 or 7 (I fully twigged to what was going on when I was about 8). I don't think this is all that uncommon, but I don't think most boys experience it quite this strongly, this early; or they express the feelings they do have in this strange, aggressive, playful way that little boys have, playing pranks on girls and chasing-and-kissing games and such. Whereas I tended to over-think everything and got powerful feelings of shame instead, girls being officially icky. And to some extent it actually carried through puberty; now I was supposed to feel attraction but still thought that if I expressed it, it would be bad and ridiculous. And I became a sort of closeted straight.
Gay men sometimes say that they knew they were gay when they were small children, and people don't believe it because they think of their childhood experience as free from these feelings, but it sounds completely plausible to me.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 10:20 am (UTC)You're right -- I think most people have those feelings one way or another as children, but either don't recognized them or are too ashamed of them and repress the memories.
Shame is a sad thing.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-27 01:59 pm (UTC)Also, I had my very first crush on a girl who was, by all counts, at least as much a nerd as I was, at least at the time. She wore glasses, walked with a strange gait which I now know to be some sort of physical "deformity", and was the only person in the school who could beat me at a spelling bee. I loved her as madly as was possible at the time. I still think of her fondly from time to time and wonder where she is these days.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-29 01:32 pm (UTC)